Sunday, December 16, 2007

See, I'm not the only one

Click over to Counterpunch to read an essay by a Christian minister who also thinks it's time for the Jesus contingent to quit hogging Christmas.

16 comments:

Renee said...

That's a very fine article and he has some excellent points!

Mary said...

Well, they took it all from the pagan Yule celebrations of light giving way to darkness. The hard core Christians don't like people knowing that.

Mary said...

Hmmm, maybe I meant darkness giving way to light (after the solstice).

BitterGrace said...

The wheel keeps turning, Mary, so why quibble? That's what I love about the Pagan worldview--we welcome the darkness as well as the light.

I grew up in a pretty fundamentalist Christian church, but I can remember our minister saying something similar to Lawrence's argument. The really hardcore folk around us rejected the Pagan aspects of Christmas, while our preacher thought they were harmless, and took nothing away from Christianity.

Nancy said...

"I'm not the only one..." can be a dangerous statement. After all there once was a consensus
that the world was flat....

OK, you never answered whether you have read the bible and I am curious if you have? It would help when discussing stuff like Christmas.

For the whole bible is really about Christ, the Messiah who did come as prophesied lots of places in the Old Testament--like Isaiah - back more than 700 years, for instance before Jesus' birth.

Reference Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God w/us). That alone was fulfilled in the New Testament, a time of celebration for real Christians.

It is not about December 25th. It is about the event -- Jesus born, 100% God and 100% Man to come and live among us for awhile fulfilling more prophecy including His death on the cross, His resurrection to new life and His ascension to Heaven. Only He could pay the penalty for our screwups because He alone was the perfect sacrifice. Repenting of the screwups -- knowing you do them and believing in Christ as who He is is all that is needed for reconciling anyone who would call on HIm. He turns no one away but never forces one to come...

Anyway, the thing about the Episcopal priest...Many so called Christian churches will often ursurp the bible w/their own man made standards acting like they are God's...fish on Friday....confession to a priest (Whereas Jesus said to confess to HIm in private)...praying to others than Lord Jesus (read Ex 20 about what God says about that).

And just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not make them one. (If you really are God's child you read the bible you would be able to identify the charlatans/hypocrites.)

Remember the Reverend Jim Jones?

So Bittergrace whaddaya think?

And that thing about gifts...In order for a gift to be received it must be accepted and opened. Jesus is the best gift I ever opened!

Merry Christmas!

BitterGrace said...

Well, Nancy, what I think is that you and I believe very different things, and that's okay with me, but doesn't seem to be okay with you.

For the record, yes, I spent a good chunk of my life immersed in the Bible as a believing Christian. Now here's a question for you: How much do you know about Wicca, or Islam, or Buddhism? Whatever your degree of knowledge about those faiths, you've clearly found your faith in Christianity. Good for you. Wouldn't it be obnoxious and arrogant of me to try to tell you you're wrong, and that you must believe as I do?

You're welcome here, Nancy, and feel free to say what you think about the issue at hand, but trying to convert me is rude--not to mention a waste of your time. I know your god and I don't care for him, just as you don't care for mine.

And by the way, if you want to win debates with non-believers, avoid mentioning people like Jim Jones. He discredits the Christians, not the heathen.

Margaret said...

One of the nice things about pagans, from what I can tell, is that they don't spend a lot of time accusing each other of not being pagan enough. The same cannot be said of my fellow Christians, I'm sorry to keep finding out. Pagans also seem to know their history much better, not even to mention the rules of basic human civility.

Nancy said...

Jim Jones was a fake yet called himself a Christian....Sorry I didn't make that clear. I was trying to make a point of people/ministers who call themselves Christians but anything but. That is why I made the reference in how to identify charlatans.

2007 is this year and the year I now celebrate Jesus' birth.

I am not trying to "convert" you.

Knowledge w/in the head does not necessarily hit the heart.

Until one's heart is willing to be broken and softened it cannot be reached.

It is the truth that will set you free.

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father except by me."

God's grace is sufficient Bittergrace.

How do you know you were a Christian?

What do you mean you were immersed in the bible?

Can't answer for Budda or Wicca except to say each person is looking for the truth and nothing in the Bible is contrary to the truth. Even the secularists of the time agreed....by eye witnesses.

.

BitterGrace said...

So, Nancy, it's finally becoming clear to me. You're a messenger of Satan, seeking to discredit Christians by making them seem arrogant, and none too bright. You can relax now, your work is done.

Feel free to drop the disguise and hang around. We welcome Satanists, too.

Anonymous said...

Now playing: FreeWill -

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
With a host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars arent aligned ---
Or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will

There are those who think that theyve been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them ---
They werent born in lotus-land

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You cant pray for a place
In heavens unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
Thats far too fleet...



Happy Monday!

Dawn :))

BitterGrace said...

I have to admit, Margaret, Pagans have been known to squabble. They do frown on proselytizing, though, which is their saving grace, so to speak.

Dawn, is that a Rush song? I love that.

Anonymous said...

Yep, that's a RUSH song. From what I have heard, they were or maybe still are into Ayn Rand's perspectives. I wanted to say teachings or studies but I am not really familiar with her opinions. Anyway, that song was supposedly written after they had studied some of her works.

Happy Tuesday my Pentacle Wearing Babe!

Dawn

BitterGrace said...

Well, I'm no Ayn Rand fan, but free will is a useful concept--it beats looking to Big Daddy to take care of you, in any case.

Nancy said...

So disappointed to hear you name call and be so wrong about it. Satan nor his messengers would have written what was sent to you by me. I am not a messenger of Satan nor a Satanist.

In fact I belong to God.


Here are some words of God, the Lord Jesus when the religious leaders, the Pharisees refused to believe in Jesus instead they were looking for a Messiah of their own choosing-- just like much of what is being done today:

John 8:43-51 "Why do you not understand My speech? because you are not able to listen to My word.

You are of you father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

God's grace --undeserved and unmerited mercy in the form of Jesus Christ. Look at the anacronymn-- G.R.A.C.E.: God's Riches At Christ's Expense.
God's grace is not bitter. For God is good and light. He desires that none would perish from this world w/out Him.

Each day we live we should be thankful for the breath, each breath He gives us -- our sight, our personalities, our very flesh He made. Why He formed us and knew us before we were born and declares us fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139 for example.

One day our flesh will cease to function...cease to draw breath for He has given us each a number of days....AND He wants us to be w/Him in paradise but will not force us. He has given us free will to choose life w/Him.

Like I said earlier, I belong to God and know for certain that I will go to heaven. I recognized my sin--all those shortcomings that would prevent me from entering heaven w/God because He cannot be present w/sin. But because I did confess them and believe in Jesus being my Savior to pay my penalty and am sorry for all the bad stuff I did, when God looks at me now, He sees me sinless...That blows my mind! And I still miss the mark, although differently.

Sorry for being so long -- I just wanted to share this with you because accepting Jesus is the biggest miracle to happen in anyone's life. I am an anyone.

I am no longer looking to fill the empty spots. I am not afraid of where I will go when I die. And Jesus gave me the "downpayment" I guess I'd call it -- the Holy Spirit w/in my heart to encourage, help and guide me along my days here.

Again, I am one of His. I hear His voice. He knows me and I follow Him.

Jesus said in John 10:28-29: "And I give them eternal life and they shall never perish,; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. I and the Father are one.

Each person is responsible for themselves. It is not the responsibility of a minister or acquaintance or whatever to get you to heaven or keep you from heaven. Free will choice is given to all. When you read the bible you can see the choices made for/against.

God said: Choose life.

So bittergrace, this pretty much wraps things up for me.

I am going to pray for you, that your heart would be so soft and open to God's word. I'll even go so far as to recommend you read the book of John. But would you ask God to reveal Himself to you which He says He promises to do if you sincerely ask.

With that, I say "Ciao".

Mary said...

So Gracie....how 'bout those Yankees?

;)

BitterGrace said...

Now, Mary, you know I'm a White Sox fan. ;-D